What are the Email DIALOGS?
The questions that come in from subscribers and web visitors may answer questions you have too. Sender's names, email addresses and all personal information is protected. EMAIL DIALOGS include only relevant questions & answers that may assist our readers and site visitors to go deeper in their own investigation of the Mayan calendar. These are actual email dialogs and primarily are left un-edited except for taking out any private information.
Today's Question
First Name: R.
E-mail Address: xxxx
My Comments:: the living Maya speak of 20 calendars, 15 revealed, 5 secret... Mr C's work that you use, only uses one of these, 5% of the revealed Maya Calendar ... maybe you all are misrepresenting something here ... what about the other 95% ??? ... disappointing ... do you care ???
Reply From Andi
--- On Wed, 6/18/08, Andi Mac wrote:
From: Andi Mac <thecode(at)pobox.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:22 AM
Dear R.,
Thank you for sending an email.
Actually, in Dr. Calleman's work and in ours as well, the two calendars we focus on are the Tzolkin and the Tun "in-phase" with one another.
This doesn't discount the other calendars used by the ancient Maya - however, the point is this, the calendars that deal with conscious evolution are the Tzolk'in and Tun respectively. Within the calendrical system used by the ancient Maya, there were many calendars used for tracking the movements of Venus, Mars, Saturn, the Sun and the phases of the Moon. These physical movements were necessary within their cultural view and of course used for purposes of planting and various celebrations. Many of these do not apply to modern people. The astronomical tools available today are in many ways superior to those used in the ancient days - but there is in this discipline no recognition of the spiritual aspects, whereas in the Mayan calendar there is as these timing cycles in the Tzolkin and Tun are not about anything physical.
Do you actually understand what it is Dr. Calleman has discovered about the Tzolkin and Tun when they are in phase?
Are you familiar with what has been discovered? Or are you making an assumption about what you think it is? I ask this question quite seriously and with respect.
Peacefully,
Andi Mac
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:59 PM
To: thecode@pobox.com
Subject: Mayanist or true Maya
Hi,
I have been a galactic astrologer for nearly thirty years. The Maya Calendar is an application of astrology. I have personally worked with both the Tzolkin (not a real Mayan word, neither are baktun, katun, etc.) and the "Tun" cycle nearly daily for over 13 years. I see how all the "calendars" are part of one integrated galactic astrology system. I recently spent four years in spiritual retreat, off the grid, in the rainforest working with the "Maya Calendar" as a meditational spiritual practice. I returned to the world to see many people repeating the "new dogma" of the Calleman Calendar. If you are such a "believer", I suspect you may not be open the other view points.
Some people believe Columbus DISCOVERED America and some believe he led the way to the genocide of an entire culture. Like with Mr Arguelles and Dreamspell, Mr. C and his followers would do well to NOT call his interpretation of the calendar, THE Mayan Calendar, because it's not. Another symptom of the same problem; been watching the 13-Moonies for years now. There is a reason why the cycle ends on 4-Ahau and not 13-Ahau and it's Mr. Calleman's shortsightedless that prevents him from understanding that. His overlay of the nights and days are his interpretation alone as are his shifting of the cycle dates; the Calleman version of the Mayanist Calendar ... still not touching in to the real Maya Calendar. I'm sharing from experience.
I don't see conscious evolution when people just repeat the dogma made up by others rather than sharing from their own experience and heart. I'm sorry
Galactic ally,
R.
Reply From Andi
--- On Wed, 6/18/08, Andi Mac wrote:
From: Andi Mac
Subject: RE: Mayanist or true Maya
Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 11:49 PM
Dear R.,
Thank you for sharing a little of your history.
I asked one simple question you didn´t answer. It would be good to know your answer before going into further dialog together…
Do you actually understand what it is Dr. Calleman has discovered about the Tzolkin and Tun when they are in phase?
Are you familiar with what has been discovered? Or are you making an assumption about what you think it is? I ask this question quite seriously and with respect.
If you are willing to honestly answer that question then it would be a pleasure to dialog with you in more detail.
If you hold your current views and opinions without having done any research on your own, beyond what you´re hearing people say, then respectfully I would point out (as you aptly stated) just like any "believer" you may not be open to other viewpoints.
30 years in any field will produce a certain "I know" mind. There is nothing wrong with that, it simply tends to limit the possibilities.
Since you said Calleman uses only one of the Mayan calendars, I can only semi-conclude you do not understand the research or the basis upon which this is work is done. Again… nothing wrong with that.
The tone of your first email was rather acidic and I can appreciate that you´re already frustrated by the information you´re thus far certain is true.
If you´re willing to answer my question. I´d be happy to dialog with you further. If you´re interested only in an argument it would be my choice not to participate.
Warmest regards,
Andi Mac
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: ... tell the truth ...
Hi,
Yes, I read both books and some of the articles on the web site. By in phase do you mean starting on 1-Imix and ending on 13-Ahaw?
Please articulate what you believe are ORIGINAL discoveries by Mr. C ... please number them and we''ll discuss. The acceleration of time comes straight from Terence McKenna (who is now dead) and his book the Invisible Landscape. The overlay of a "single" Maya Calandar cycle over history with astrological interpretations comes straight from Jose' Arguelles' Mayan Factor and McKenna's Time Wave Zero. Granted 1. new dating 2. new 7 day/night overlay (kinda).
I don't relay on second hand info, especially regarding the Mayan Calendar. I have done my research, my own calculations and have found proven errors in some of what NASA puts out regarding Venus' cycle and can match modern lunar theories to over 5 decimal places using the Calendar. My book is called [edited for privacy]... and I don't steal other people's material ...
This comes from Mr. Calleman's web site where he admits to plagiarism: http://www.calleman.com/content/articles/end_date.htm
" ... my current book, Solving the Greatest Mystery of Our Time: The Mayan Calendar, has a number of shortcomings from a scholarly point of view. An example of this is the lack of references and acknowledgments of sources generally. And so, it was not acknowledged that one of the day tables used for calculating tuniversaries and tzolkin days was in fact taken from Jenkins' book Tzolkin. I apologize for having omitted such an acknowledgment and will try to correct it by adding it in my forthcoming book 13 Ahau - The Mayan Calendar as a Guide on the Path towards Enlightenment. I suspect however that in this regard there are many, probably much worse, omissions in my book The Mayan Calendar. ... "
I'd say nearly everything said outside of Mexico and Guatemala about the Mayan Calendar is actually the "Mayanist Calendar". Mr Callaman's discoveries are just that, his discoveries. If you knew what I knew about the Calendar, you'd see that his system is made up. NOTHING wrong with that. I believe it's time people to stop exploiting indigenous sacred traditions by calling their discoveries the Maya Calendar. The "heat" you feel is the outrage felt by indigenous people when they see what is done with their sacred traditions. Are you suggesting Mr. C is the first person ever to discover what he discovered in the purpose of the Mayan Calendar? There are not earlier references to his dating or division into nights and days.
I'm not arguing. I'm trying to clue you in ... this is a free wake up call ... there is a real Maya Calendar and Mr. C hasn't seen it yet. I guess we'll see what's up in November 2011 if everyone is, per chance, not fully enlightened.
Galactic ally,
R.
Reply From Andi
Sent: Wed 6/18/2008 9:52 PM
Dear R.,
If you will re -read what I said, I never used the word "original". I think you mistook my meaning. I never said anything about original - I said 'what he discovered', which means what he put together within the framework of his research.
I am well aware that Carl has integrated a great deal of material from those who have come before him – as most every writer in the world has done.
"Nothing new under the sun", isn´t just a saying.
As a side note: personally I don´t expect everyone to be enlightened by November 2011.
There is also most definitely a leap taken in Carl´s work; a leap that is not traditional and stated as such.
The Tzolkin and Tun in phase means both completed from the first underworld through to the end of a 9 leveled pyramid where all the cycles are working together "in phase" and that being an evolutionary driver that embraces more than planet Earth and more than even our solar system.
It isn´t quite as simple as landing on a 13 Ahau.
This idea is derived from the named cycles on the Coba stone - entirely Mayan - but one would have to leap to make that connection and that is stipulated in his work.
I wouldn´t call building on the work of others plagiarism. Everything we´ve built along the way - as a species - does exactly that. To ignore all discoveries before you and pretend you will create the whole picture all by yourself, would border on insanity.
There is nothing at all new about this - nor incorrect in my view. There are shades of many things in Carl´s work, however the way the relationship are articulated is really quite unique.
As to the quote you included below, the step to correct an oversight builds credibility. I cannot see how it damages it.
A point clearly made in Carl´s work is that what is presented is not traditional. That has never been implied as I am aware and I´ve spent quite a bit time with Carl and discussed these points directly.
Modern Maya were/are as cut off from the ancient calendrical science as the whole of humanity has been. With 1,000 years of distance, not to mention extreme oppression and 500 years of catholic rule, I would not expect modern Maya to have kept the connection to the most ancient roots any more than I would expect my next door neighbor who is Scandinavian to know about Vikings.
That is not to say that new traditions have not been built up, which are by now old. And traditions are most certainly sacred to people. I understand that and have lived the experience myself.
Humanity has held to ideals of "tradition", "nation", "tribe", "kindred", "bloodlines", "language" and "beliefs" of all kinds.
Tradition is another word for religion. Tradition/religion does not have the power to transform a human life. It never has. We´ve had tradition around for thousands of years and still there is suffering, pain, difficulty and disintegration in man.
Finally dear R. I do not feel the "heat". You do. I simply recognize it´s there and that there´s frustration. People have waged wars for eons over traditions because they are seen as "sacred".
What is truly sacred cannot be taken away. It cannot be trampled upon. It cannot be harmed. Would you not agree?
There is ground beyond external tradition and ritual, there is a place beyond the different ways of seeing things and the language used to debate… there are very simple things to discover that are not attached to tradition or religion or science. That is what´s left after all the stories have fallen away. There´s freedom there. Not an imagined freedom but a truly free mind - free to question and find its way home.
Carl´s work struck a chord for me on those grounds.
Warmest regards,
Andi Mac
=============================
Final Notes
After the response above was sent, there has been no further communication with R. on this topic. This email dialog holds value because the discussion goes to the heart of the idea that investigating the Mayan calendar for it's value to modern people, is a lack of respect for ancient ways. It is an understandable viewpoint and yet... hopefully there is room for growth and discovery.
I'd like to thank R. for such courageous and directed questions and the opportunity to engage in this dialog.
- Andi Mac
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